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Post by Ms Harriet Vane on Jun 19, 2011 8:34:00 GMT -5
I wonder if Ned would have come around to Varys' way of thinking if he'd been in charge for any length of time? Or would he always have been doomed to pissing off the wrong people with his insistence on perfect honesty at all times?
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Post by griphus on Jun 19, 2011 13:32:21 GMT -5
I think Ned's constant stream of fuck-ups would have gotten him killed one way or another. He wasn't perfectly honest, but when he did lie -- about Catelyn going out on his orders, for instance -- it was just just not a good idea.
I think one of the big points the show makes is that while the Lannisters are vile people, they are probably the only capable family in the realm. No one else actually gets things DONE like they do, which is why Varys has no problem going along with their plans even if once in a while Jeoffrey tries to pretend his balls dropped lower than they did.
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Post by misslapin on Jun 19, 2011 16:36:40 GMT -5
As a family that's true, but I think Daenerys was beginning to prove herself as a very capable leader, which considering where she started as a character is very impressive. It's possible she may have swung too far on the pendulum (I'm guessing we'll find out tonight) but I think she may be able to give the Lannisters are a run for their money in terms of being able to get things done. After all, the Lannisters were capable of manipulating Robert, who really didn't want to rule anyway. Joffrey, unlike Robert, is really digging this whole king thing and has rejected Cersei's counsel once. I'm willing to bet now he IS in control things are actually going to be more difficult for the Lannisters.
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Post by bearwife on Jun 29, 2011 19:28:12 GMT -5
I'm about 3/4 of the way through listening to A Clash of Kings right now, and Ned's death is still reverberating for me. I was so deeply shocked by it when I was listening to the book that I had to stop listening at all for awhile so it could sink in. I was dreading this episode because I knew what was coming, and once again I found it profoundly shocking.
What bothers me most about this death is not that it happened. I certainly don't think Ned was stupid to give Cersei a chance to flee, and let me point out she had nothing to do with his execution. Joffrey acknowledged that just before he demanded Ned's head, and even then Cersei tried to talk Joffrey out of what was clearly a completely unexpected turn of events. Perhaps Cersei should know Joffrey's thirst to see other people's blood and pain, but most mothers tend to miss these traits in their children, and so it is hard to see how she could predict how much he would vary from the deal Varys had worked out with Ned. I'd just add that Ned was always willing to die for honor, as he lived his whole life in its service.
What troubled me is that Ned had to give up his honor -- by admitting he was a "traitor" and acknowledging a rightful kingship that in fact was nothing of the kind -- yet gained nothing for it. His goal was to save his daughters, but his death merely left them completely undefended.
To take away a good man's honor, for nothing -- this is what really still shocks me about this death. But Game of Thrones is a very realistic fantasy, not one that seems to aim for too many happy endings or rightful deserts.
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Post by Ms Harriet Vane on Jul 1, 2011 5:29:38 GMT -5
I liked Ned giving Cersei that chance too. If she wasn't so power-hungry, she could have taken the offer and done very well for herself over in Essos in the Free Cities or whatever. Varys would sort something out, I'm sure. And there is no way Ned would want to see Robert doing his apparently standard kill-the-kids routine, even if one of those kids is that annoying shithead Joffrey.
I still found myself watching the episode and hoping that maybe it'd end differently. It happens when I re-read the books too. It really is a very shocking and unexpected development, even with the benefit of hindsight.
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Post by misslapin on Jul 5, 2011 17:46:32 GMT -5
My feeling about Ned's tactics were from watching the show. When I read the book, particularly Ned's memories of the previous war, I was very sympathetic. It's one of the things that I couldn't see HOW the show could have made that clearer without a flashback or a VO (and I'm happy that didn't go that route) but it gave me a far different perspective on the motivations of his behavior.
For me the enjoying equally book/adaptation experience is rare. The only other time I remember having this response is to the book AND the film adapatation "The Sweet Hereafter." A lot of the fun for me was seeing the different ways characters/issues were presented in order to evoke in the audience the same feeling as the book.
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